Monday, June 4, 2012

I Hear You, Akiva

Amongst the various reasons why I blog is the fact that my life was pretty much destroyed by a rabbi, many years ago. 

It's often a struggle for me to maintain any emunah at all, wondering why Hashem allows corrupt and misguided rabbis to continue to represent Him......but my blog helps in some way, and hopefully helps others as well. 

If not for the internet and the Torah available on it, I sometimes doubt if I would have any faith left at all... and so I blog... and so do many others.

When I read Akiva's post Jewish Blogger Comes Out and thought about the misguided attitude of the Asifa Brigade - how they truly have no idea how hard it is for so many people to connect to Torah in their own communities - and who find solace on the internet, and actually manage to learn.......I was reminded of this story of the Baal Shem Tov, which is obviously happening right in front of our eyes:  

I heard from my teacher and father-in-law, who was the chief disciple of Rebbe Yechiel Michal of Zlotchov, that once when the Baal Shem Tov was traveling on the road, he stepped into a wooded area to pray the afternoon prayer. His disciples were dumbfounded to see him hitting his head against a tree, crying and screaming. Afterward, they asked him what had happened. He explained that he had seen, with divine inspiration, that in the generations before the coming of the Moshiach there would be a multitude of rabbis, and that they would be the very ones who would impede the redemption. [Otzar Chayim]


Anonymous said...

Thank you both. Wishing everyone peace, health, happiness, and harmony. May Hashem bless you and everyone with spiritual and material health and to serve in joy.
Continued hatzlocha,

Dov Bar-Leib said...

Those in the Ashkenazi Torah Party in Israel enabled Sharon's evil plans in 5765, and ended up delaying the redemption for 6 more years. So the Ba'al Shem Tov was right on even if this incident took place more than 250 years ago! In the month of Av in the days leading up to the Disengagement in 5765, there was a massive Asifah at the Western Wall beseeching G-d for mercy, to stop the Disengagement. This was announced weeks in advance. And hundreds of thousands of Jews tried to gather there at the Kotel. The leader of the Ashkenazi world gave a p'sak that no yeshivah bochur from Mir or Kamenetz could attend because when it would come time to leave the Kotel Plaza, at least a quarter of a million Jews would try to leave via the Dung Gate or the smaller Cardo Gate, and men and women would end of touching each other as they squeezed out of the Old City. And I agree. Upon leaving the otherwise spectacular event in which of course there was tremendous Tzeniut, there was the issue of leaving through those two gates. And there was the issue of touching members of the opposite sex. So I had no issues with the psak. But my first thought upon hearing this psak was why not set up a closed circuit video system so that the boys at Mir and Kamenetz could daven along with the massive throngs that were there? There were no issues of a lack of tzeniut at the davening itself. It was only an issue of leaving the Kotel Plaza after the event. It was a natural thought and a perfect solution to the problem. It has bothered me for seven years. And now I see that when they want to ban the Internet and to disqualify the Eidut of witnesses at weddings if they are packing Smartphones, they set up the precise closed circuit tv system which could have unified Klal Yisrael seven years ago. I am sorry for saying this, but the hypocrisy of making this the issue to finally set up the closed circuit tv system is so glaring that at least for me, the pronouncements made at this affair are worth ignoring. Yes, the evil in the Internet must be filtered out, and children should only be allowed on the Internet with supervision, but there is so much that is good about the technology and so many pareve things that can be sanctified. This is the Jewish way. We are not Amish.

YY said...


Im in shock that you have the gall to speak this way against the Gedolei Hador. Who on earth do you think you are?! You probably just moved moshiach back ten years with your above post. If moshiach will come in our times it is due to the tzikus of our Gedolim. Not due to the blogging of Shira on this anti Torah blog.

YY said...

Furthermore, the Rabbanim only prohibited unfiltered internet. They said that all internet must be filtered however one who needs internet for work may have internet as long as it is filtered.

If someone needs Torah there are probably over 30,000 books and sefarim that have been translated into English. One doesnt need to come to the internet for Torah. It is the Yetzer Hora telling you that you need the internet for Torah.

Moriah said...

G-d allowed the Internet to be created. There is so much knowledge on the Internet available and Torah! I can work out in my living room and listen to a shiur on Naaleh or I can find out what's happening in Israel and I can do my banking and go to the Geulah blogger sites I live so much. Yes, there is evil potential here. This is another test and maybe a weeding out. Personally I think it was ridiculous to forbid the bochurs from supporting other Jews because they might accidentally brush against a girl. Can't they accidentally brush against a female on the sidewalk or in the market or in the tight confines of a bus or whatever. Maybe they need to incorporate a personal cardboard box - like a refrigerator box and strap in onto their shoulders - a preventive measure to keep anything remotely looking female out of their "personal space." They can put blinders on while their at it. Jews need to support other Jews RIGHT NOW because we're about to have a repeat of stupid Jewish galut minded, ghetto minded behavior. That's what's important. This insane behavior is maddening! How much longer do we have to repeat history before our eyes open?

Bill McCaulley said...

Dear administrator of the blog:

Gut Voch. I can readily identify with the post of the 4th instant. As a ger tzedek, i have had on numerous occasions consulted rabbis concerning halachic and personal issues. Were I to quantify, I'd approximate 95% of the time I received a reply that demonstrated sensitivity and appreciation of my personal circumstances. However, I have also communicated with rabbis who, and I intend no disrespect, demonstrated that they were totally clueless. As we are required to be dan l'chas zchus, I would attribute their replies to a lack of knowledge of the non-observant world rather than insensitivity or malice. Only oncce did I have an experience with a rabbi whom I could characterize as evincing ill will. During my preparation for conversion, a friend related to me that he heard a prominent local rabbi state that he would not touch me with the proverbial 10 foot pole (vis a vis geirus) because I am Negro. I was extremely disconcerted. Still, I was not present, albeit I have no reason to question my friend's veracity.

Perhaps if it was brought to the attention of the rabbis, they would realize that their pronouncements are injurious to many members of the community and the rabbis would modify their positions on variou issues. I certainly hope this is the case. My anticipation of Moshiach is the primary factor that actuates me.

Thank you.
Kol tov.
Lommer deleben Moshiach.

Devorah said...

Please go and read Akiva's post and try to understand what we are saying.

Who do I think I am? I am Devorah, not Shira. Shira means song - this blog is the Song of Devorah. I am someone who has been a victim of abuse, condoned by people you call the gedolei hador. Fortunately, however, I have found alternate rabbis on the INTERNET, and I thank God for them and all the other bloggers who bring us Torah for FREE.

I wish the gedolei hador would devote as much time to ridding our religion of corrupt rabbis, and helping the abused children and wives, instead of condemning innocent bloggers and their readers.

Devorah said...

Bill, the rabbi who ''would not touch you with a 10 foot pole'' should not have the title rabbi. You were fortunate not to be touched by him.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Devorah and Moriah for beautiful responses to YY. She just proves to us all that not only do the ErevRav exist and are so prominent today in all powerful positions, but that the Erev Zeir are contributing just as much to holding back the geulah. Just the disunity amongst the G-D fearing Jews is evidence enough and that there are so many sects and divisions must dishearten the Ribbono Shel Olam and all in the name of Torah and Yiddishkeit. I also agree wholeheartedly with Moriah when she speaks of the fanaticism of brushing up against a woman in the crowds. What world do they come from; this is not the yiddishkeit of my grandparents (truly holy people) from Eretz Yisrael, who had none of these chumras and mishagasin. Wake up yidden because while we have this in-fighting, our enemies are gaining strength. Achdut in the proper way is what Hashem wants from us. By the way, it is a delight reading the beautiful response from the ger tzedek, Bill, who seems to have the true yiddishe neshama and seems to understand more than most what a mensch is.

Anonymous said...


I am thankful for your courage and perseverance.

It is extremely difficult to stand up to the one who is supposed to be your support, when he is just the opposite. That can be a parent, rabbi, doctor etc....
May Hashem bless you and all who try.

Anonymous said...

Oh YY!!
Y are you- I mean -why are you coming out with such hateful rantings??

Y Oh Y..I mean Why oh Wy!!

If you YY think of yourself better than Devorah, you are not, for your writing is so full of hate and the - I am -better than thou-art attitude stinks.

You are just like any other human being, you are not better as you might think of yourself.
On this site many, even us Goyim, have found wisdom and solace and its all thanks to Devorah's Blog! And many good and helpful people who encourage and speak out when someone writes what problems they may be going through. Have written helpful and encouraging things. I know, I peronally have found wisdom here and great encouragement on Devorah' site.
Please be nice and kind and apologise to Devorah as soon as possible.
Devorah, you are a wonderful person and your sharing of your your bad experiences, which you did not have to divulge, has made you even greater. Hashem Loves you. Many on this site I am sure do too. Thanks so much for what you do.

Ofcourse, there are lots of Rabbis, and priests and all those others under the guise and dress of carrying on Hashem's Holy will, are doing the work of the evil one.

Soon all will be exposed. Amain and Amain.

Stella c.

Anonymous said...

Do they really believe it's preferable to throw families out of their homes than to accidentally brush up against a woman? Absolute insanity!

Leah said...

I will second that, Devorah. I cannot imagine anyone more holy than a ger- no matter what color his/ her skin is. I am in awe of the ger. It literally speaks to me that their neshama said, "na'aseh v'nishmah", yet the amount from that particular people was not quantitatively enough and therefore their neshama needed to wait painstakingly for 3324 years to convert. WHO in their right mind could reject this person?
Think about this: Can one imagine what Hashem thinks of their paltry excuse when they stand before Him on the day they are judged. Can one imagine having THEN to have to gall to say, 'Well, it's the color of his or her skin so therefore blah blah blah." What do they think Hashem thinks of the ger? I will tell you: They have not really say down and thought- and THAT is a big problem.

Leah said...

YY: I can honestly tell you there are those individuals who would take advantage of others. In Yorah Deah it states that if a child is being abused by a parent(s) he/ she should leave. It then says that a parent(s) do not have to accept retribution abuse on themselves should the child be vengeful. What is noted by rabbanim is that the first part of the statement is in defense of the child FIRST. Why? It is there in that form to help the most innocent: the children.
In this same vain, a person must stand up for him/herself. If Devorah, who has always been considerate of others and has always taken the both the Torah's authorship and holiness sacred, is saying that there have been some rabbanim who have taken advantage of others, then she is doing so not out of malice. She is doing so as a warning that people are human and err and one should be warned. Most rabbanim do not fall into this category thankfully.
My child received a summer camp welcome book. In it it discusses that if anyone touches you inappropriately -rabbanim, staff, campers, then you are to report it. They did not shy away from the subject. It is really really easy to hide on the internet. The internet is a great tool and it, too must come with warnings becasue there are those who will deceive....

Moshe said...

Hopefully all mahloket here leshem Shammaim. When Moshiah will come we 'll be surprised and shame how wrong we were. Satan is working very hard that there will be mahloket between Jews in this world Asia. We should stop now blame each other even when we think we are 100% right. Shut the mouse of the Satan and don't blame on your fellow man. When you wanna say something, hold that and be quiet, and you will shine like a sun. don't forget when the Peace between Am Israel here there is Peace in the Shammaim, when we unite, Moshiah will come with Mercy. We all want that right?

Anonymous said...

shalom. one of my rabbis, from US, who had first hand knowledge of sharon, agreed with rav kadouri, who passed away, that sharon was a great military man who fought with zeal, the physical battles . i have not asked permission to place his name here, however i wrote to him about a week ago re sharon. and this is what he replied. :"Arik Sharon fought as an infantry lieutenant in the War of Independence, and was severely wounded at the Battle of Latrun -- he nearly died.

In the early 1950's when the Arab terrorist actions began to be organized and launched from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank area under Jordanian control, he was placed in charge of a special anti-terrorism unit, called "Unit 101", whose job was to conduct reprisal raids against the villages and towns which sonsored terrorist actions against Israel. The unit was very effective.

In the Sinai Campaign, Sharon was the commander of a paratroop unit which was ordered to reconnoitre the Mitla Pass, the only way through the hills of central Sinai. He ordered a "reconnaissance in force" which was not what the General Staff really had in mind, and took the pass, thus making victory possible (though it made him more enemies in the army).

During the Six-Day Warm he was in command of a combined-arms task force which again broke through in the central Sinai and contributed materially to the great victory and Egyptian rout.

He was a great warrior for Israel when Israel needed great warriors. "
in fact rav kadouri, on one of his few and last interviews with the artuz sheva was clealy against speaking ill of sharon. another friend of mine from US, fought in the yom k war. he was a sergeant. he said, they were behind the sand bags, and the enemy planes were flying above with bullets flying eveyrwhere. he was terrified. he kept saying the shema yisrael. sharon walked to each group, encouraging them, telling them that a jew never says die. israel will never fall. he said, it was sharon who gave the soldiers courage to go on. he was there with them on the field. sharon did say that the first rocket that comes from gaza he will re take. but he had the stroke. the international pressure must have been immense and not being at the level of the torah scholars and not asking them guidance he made a decision. all the blame cannot be placed on one person. Maybe israel was not ready for redemption then, so Hashem allowed all this to happen.

Anonymous said...

when my friend in irving, texas, james dollard wanted to convert, he told me an orth rabbi, spat at him. he did not take offense. as he said, think of the multitude of harm we have done to the jewish people. do we expect the jewish people to be perfect, sinless. then if we do, it fits with what the xtns speak of jc, the sinless one. this is not the jewish perspective. no one is perfect. we all have our flaws.
its like seeing a few black dots on a huge white paper, and when asked what one sees. the answer is , a few black dots on a huge white sheet,. when it would have been more positive to say, a huge white sheet with a few spottings, of black.
each one of us have personal battles to fight, personal let downs. one thing we have to remember is Hashem never punishes us for the sins of others or mistakes of others. the sages themselves say this.
even king hezekiah, a great torah scholar, who could have been the mosiach, missed the boat. do we hold it against him? no.everything will fall in place when the time comes. many jewish lives were lost at every miss, but they are lost only physically, not spiritually. just my humble view.
re the internet, if not for the internet there would be no way i could have studied with the rabbis. in many places the internet is the vehicle that reaches to the darkest places in the world with the light of the torah. on the other hand, many jewish families have broken up because husbands had become addicted to pornographic movies. and children have become addicted. i n israel jewish boys an d girls have been duped by palestinians preying on the net. so the best answer is filtering.

Yonatan said...

This has gotten so out of control. The entire separation of the sexes, including the barring of internet use and blurring out of females in pictures has gotten to the point that it is now more harmful than what they are trying to protect from. We are sent into this world to make a dwelling place for Hashem in this physicality. How can you do that if you are completely blocking off access to the world? Internet filtering? It's called your mind. This is the only filter that has any effect. If you accidentally touch or brush up against a female, you deploy your "filter" and not immediately jump to impure thoughts. Perhaps its so hard for some specifically because they have to normal contact in the day to day world.

Anonymous said...

I love Dov Bar Leib's take on all things geulah..but stopping a prayer rally at the kotel because the sexes might mix? With that attitude and logic I guess we'll have to seriously reconsider Aliyat HaRegel and bringing korbanim when Moshiach comes for the same reason...

Tzvi Bar-Rashbi said...

so becaucse of gush kativ we had to wait 7 years find geulah tammuz/av 5772

Anonymous said...

The internet is the perfect example of Hashem leading a person in the path they wish to go on.

DrM said...

Devorah looks like I agree with you on something!!

Devorah said...

Moshiach must be close!

Devorah said...

To Anonymous who was deleted: Yes I delete comments that abuse either me, or someone else. If you have something to say to another commenter, keep it free of slander and other nasties, and it will be published. No deceit here.

Anonymous said...

"Please be respectful, otherwise your comment will not be published."

This is what your comment under your comment box posted.

The Rabbis of the Asifa are not Erev Rav. They are looking out for our neshamot. Please be respectful of the Rabbis of the Asifa.

Jesterhead45 said...

Here is a slightly edited version of what I posted on Akiva's post.

Despite growing up in a traditional Jewish home, I did not know much about Judaism and had questions that neither my parents and religious relatives nor my local Rabbis gave satisfactory answers to, being told to merely recite in a language I did not understand and do things by rote without asking questions (on top of having to deal with my disabilities), one memory that stands out from that period when I was little was when an elderly Rabbi from Israel came over and said to the congregation at my local Shul the following, “television, evil box, throw it out of window!” While the Rabbi in question despite his limited English was ultimately correct by the time I was all grown up (at least when it comes to the media inciting against Jews / Israel), it is a miracle that I was not forever turned off by Judaism like others I know around the same as myself (that tragically are now predictably deciding to marry out).

Personally, I am forever grateful to the internet for being the catalyst that renewed my desire to learn about Judaism, which strangely enough came about inadvertently from reading up on various non-Jewish series that happened to feature Jewish ideas and concepts that up to then nobody bothered teaching me about such as the Sephirot, Adam Kadmon plus the Four Worlds, Ein Sof, Geulah and Gilgul Neshamot, etc, that would ultimately inspire me to learn more from the Jewish / Moshiach blogosphere, become involved with Jewish Outreach (such as Aish, Chabad, Ohr Somayach, etc) as well as having pretty much all of my questions answered from various Rabbis around the world and continuing to learn (as well as practise) more than I ever would have had the insular Asifa been around when the internet first appeared years ago.

I am not the only Jew who has learned more about Judaism and grown to value it thanks to the internet and it really speaks volumes that those who condemn the internet as a great evil (particularly the “Chumranim”) are the same people that would rather have me and many others go off the Derech, further ostracize fellow religious Jews, embrace poverty / insularity, possess little to no common human decency and covering up child abuse / molestation in order to maintain their hold / power over Jews as if they and the sell-out secular oikophobic Jewish leadership are two sides of the same coin.

While it is not my place to pass judgement, do those Erev Zeir-types seriously believe that Heaven will validate their actions when their motivations for banning the internet are far from altruistic, especially in light of the scandals they are unwilling to tackle within their own communities?

It is worth mentioning that some Rabbis believe the internet to be a modern-day version of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which like pretty much everything in this physical world can be used for both Good and Evil… the internet is no exception and that is something the Asifa-types would do well to remember.

Dov Bar-Leib said...

I just wanted to note that my entire family was at the Asifah for Gush Katif at the Kotel just a few days before Tisha B'Av in 5765. We arrived a least three hours early in order to avoid problems with traffic and the throngs upon arrival. My son and I stood right next to Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, zt"l as he spoke to the at least one quarter of a million in the Kotel Plaza itself. My wife was so early that she actually found a seat with my daughter on a plastic chair in the women's section! It is estimated that at least another two hundred thousand if not more tried to make it to the Kotel that day, but the entire walkway from the Yafo Gate until the Kotel Plaza was so packed with people along with traffic backed up for kilometers on Derekh Chevron, Wadi Al Joz, and the New Derekh Shekhem that it was impossible to count the numbers that wanted to be there but simply could not make it. After the fervent davening, we waited about a half hour to brave the crowd leaving the Kotel Plaza. Yet, even then it was very difficult to leave through the two aforementioned gates without squeezing against other people.

And yes, when the aforementioned Torah Party enabled Sharon in 5765 by sending a letter of intent to join his government on the 9th of Tevet, 5765, they delayed the Geulah for six years. So I will not cease and desist. George W. Bush was set to be Gog son of Gog from the Land of Magog, and the Geulah would have proceeded from there. So now Gog has been replaced by the lowly slithering 11th horn dude from the Book of Daniel. He is approaching the end of the first 3 1/2 years of his rule. good luck making it through his 2nd 3 1/2 year stint in whatever Erev Rav or Erev Ze'ir existence you choose for yourself. I hope that most of Klal Yisrael chooses a more sunlit road of human decency kadmah to the Torah.

Anonymous said...

Devorah you can only think about the misguided attitude of the Asifa, but it does not mean that you are right. In Pirkey Avot it says that we have to listen to our hahamim, if they say the right is left and the left is right we have to follow them, they have chohma to say those things and make such as events. If some burns by their "rabbis" does not meant all rabbis like them and we can't compare out personal things to gedoley israel and those events. We have to be very careful saying those things, Hashem is very strict with those who say lashon hara about hahamim. 345

Anonymous said...

To "10 rainbow"
However, you, dear brother are like a new-born child, free of any sin.
Furthermore, a person's actions mirror himself...
Yours humbly.
PS Dear Shiratdevorah,
I have no words with which to express my deepest gratitude for all the GOOD that I have learnt from your respected blog. Hazak U'baruch!

Anonymous said...

Why in the world would you *ever* assume who pushes back moshiach and who doesn't. Unless you are some prophet or someone who has incredible in-depth knowledge of the torah, pure from all sin - you could not and should not *ever* accuse that someone else pushes moshiach back.

Just image that Hashem says you know what you accuse this person of pushing moshiach back 10 years, now I'll push him back 10 years because YOU said it probably happened.

Totally unbelievable that someone could be so stupid.

Anonymous said...

Do you really need a rabbi to tell you that you should filter the internet? An adult doesn't need it filtered, if they wanted to do an avayrah they would simply disable the filter.

For children, obviously you need it.

I use the internet for downloading torah lectures to listen on my way to/from work. Free. I'm not so rich that I can go into a store and buy enough lectures to last me for a year. In fact, I couldn't afford it at all.

Anonymous said...

Thank Hashem for your daily blog!
I only wish I could stay up ALL NIGHT LONG to read
the remarkable comments on all the current topics of
interest that arise from day to day.
The one on The Asifa seems to have generated a lot
of feed-back. I find them all very interesting and most
very informative. Important stuff you'd never find else-
Just take a look at your fee-jit. It's gone totally viral!
you are generating a lot of interest on land, by sea
and on islet. No doubt in HEAVEN too...

Devorah said...

Please answer this 345: If someone known as one of the ''hahamim'' did something terrible to you or your family chas v'shalom.... would you never speak about it because they were known as a chacham? Does it make them immune to any form of criticism at all?

Anonymous said...

Annonymous (345?) who wrote to Devorah to not slam the hahamim, even if they do or say evil things, as Goyim, I do not agree. How can you say Hashem would get angry if those who are abused in any form, have to bear it quietly, and keep quiet, allowing the wicked leaders to go on doing their bad things.

No, these wicked ones are using Hashem's Holy Torah to do their wicked deplorable things, and Hashem will judge THEM harshly.

So stop trying to prove that Devorah is doing wrong. She is NOT!!!

Stella c

stella c.

Anonymous said...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand, are those who arranged Asifa event did something terrible to you?345

Anonymous said...

I am not saying she is wrong, I want to understand what is exactly wrong with Asifa and how it is connected to some personal things

Anonymous said...

I said those who arranged Asifa are hahamiom of our time,
who and what are doing evil things, I want to know exactly, what you are trying to say.

Dov Bar-Leib said...

No one is saying that the Rabbaim of the Asifah in NYCity were from the Erev Rav. The Erev Rav today bows down toward a god called "World Public Opinion" or in the case of Rabbanim, "their own popularity". This Asifah has done nothing to embellish the popularity of the Rabbanim involved. In short, these Rabbanim are not from the Erev Rav. Yet, there is a 2nd Erev in Kabbalah that is discussed here:

It is a concept introduced by the GR"A called the Erev Ze'ir. The Erev Rav are the souls of the non-committed insincere converts who left Egypt with the children of Israel. And their lack of conviction and faith at that time leads them today to worship the twin gods of popularity and World Public Opinion, both of whom have the face of a dog. The Erev Ze'ir is the opposite. They are the souls of those who agreed with the spies, that it was better to continue to learn Torah in galut (in the desert) where G-d provided all of our gashmiut needs. Why struggle with the stark realities of Eretz Yisrael, when the gashmiyut seems so sweet outside of the Land of Israel? They are true souls of the sons of Israel, back a for a final try at correcting what they got so wrong in the year 2449 on Tisha B'Av, a year after leaving Egypt, when they rejected Eretz Yisrael, for life in the desert. Yes, they are looking out for your neshamot, for its continued existence in perpetual exile as all the Achishena moments to bring Geulah pass us all by. The problem now is that they run into a brick wall. It is called b'itah (in its time). We are in the final Sabbatical Cycle of the coming of ben David in the 8th year of this process. This is now year 4, the year 5772. In order to inherit the blessings of ruchniyut and gashmiyut of year 5, year 5773 from the Talmud in Sanhedrin, Mashiach ben Ephraim must arrive in Eretz Yisrael (b'kerev HaAretz) before the end of 5772, the fourth year. The dillydallying in the desert for some more sweet fruits has to be proven to be a fallacy. So rather than come to terms with a powerful technology which brings us closer to living in Eretz Yisrael, given how the number one job producer here is the Internet, they want to establish their Amish like disdain for this powerful technology outside the Land of Israel. So in their minds it serves two purposes: It keeps you in the desert of NYCity, London, Paris, or Sydney. And it creates a gap between halakhah which can be practically applied for something that has much good in it (and can therefore be sanctified) and the tenets of their rule and control, which disdain science and discovering the confluence between Torah, as it has always been, and the hard sciences that fit the Torah like a fine glove. It is a risky thing indeed to taste the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, first root yourself in the Tree of Life, the Torah, and discern what must be shunned (the evil) and what can be sanctified (the good and the pareve).

joshwaxman said...

"as Goyim"

is not actually correct. Goyim is the plural. The singular is 'goy', and should have an article (such as 'a').

And that anonymous (3:45) was not saying anything of the sort. The Rabbis who spoke at the asifa were not (as far as I know) doing any 'bad things'. Rather, they spoke out against the Internet.

Of course, if one of these hahamim did something wrong, one should speak out against them...

Anonymous said...

Stella: I am not answering for Devorah in this particular situation but there are times where we have to silently take the rebuke someone gives us as is epitomized in beautiful Psalm 39:

For the Leader, for Jeduthun. A Psalm of David.

I said: 'I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue; I will keep a curb upon my mouth, while the wicked is before me.'

I was dumb with silence; I held my peace, had no comfort; and my pain was held in check.

My heart waxed hot within me; while I was musing, the fire kindled; then spoke I with my tongue:

'LORD, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is; let me know how short-lived I am.

Behold, Thou hast made my days as hand-breadths; and mine age is as nothing before Thee; surely every man at his best estate is altogether vanity. Selah

Surely man walketh as a mere semblance; surely for vanity they are in turmoil; he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.

And now, Lord, what wait I for? My hope, it is in Thee.

Deliver me from all my transgressions; make me not the reproach of the base.

I am dumb, I open not my mouth; because Thou hast done it.

Remove Thy stroke from off me; I am consumed by the blow of Thy hand. With rebukes dost Thou chasten man for iniquity, and like a moth Thou makest his beauty to consume away; surely every man is vanity. Selah

Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; keep not silence at my tears; for I am a stranger with Thee, a sojourner, as all my fathers were.

Look away from me, that I may take comfort, before I go hence, and be no more.'

Devorah said...

I was asking a general question in response to your statement ''Hashem is very strict with those who say lashon hara about hahamim''. It's not about ME, it's about any talmud chacham who does something wrong, should we not speak up? And whilst I'm not suggesting that the Asifa Chachamim are intentionally doing BAD, by keeping silent on major issues in our communities, they are enabling others to cover up sex and abuse crimes. Their misguided attitude towards the internet just shows how far away they are from the real people, who sometimes have no alternatives but to learn Torah on the net.

Devorah said...

Of course, if one of these hahamim did something wrong, one should speak out against them...

Exactly! Thank you. I wasn't necessarily referring to the wrong of the Asifa, but the wrong of their silence in other areas. As Edmund Burke said: All it takes for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
The evil is not the internet, the evil is the other dirty stuff that goes down and is covered up by ''rabbis''.

Anonymous said...

Firstable the Asifa is just about filtering the internet, nobody said that we have to turn it off, working people can use it with filters. secondable you have no rights to call bnei Torah far away from real people. Are you real?

Anonymous said...

O.k I am a Ger.
I still say YY did not have to come out and use her 'tongue' to say things to Devorah.
YY, should have looked to her own self, to see if she/he is perfect.
All I am sayng is, NO one has to take any kind of abuse. Wicked people must be exposed. Otherwise, why should Israel fight aganst any one, just stand like silent sheep and let Hashem do the job for them? I am only speaking out against what this YY said to Devorah, and she should apologise to her right here on Devorah's blog.

I am not a smart Ger, but... I stand for those who are tread down by those who think they are so Holy.
I say, no one is Holy or Good. ONLY HASHEM!

stella c

Devorah said...

A ger is a convert, a goy is a nonJew. Stella you are very smart, whatever you are, and I love your comments.

Anonymous said...

Dear Devorah, how people can be so arrogant I no not. I am not perfect. But I try to do the best I can.
Gosh I wish I were a Ger. But I am just a Goy, Oh Oy!
Devorah, I could not do what I wanted to do this week, but soon, you see I am dependent on my family for some small things. Not all things, Thank G-d. He has given me so much and I am gratful. Will let you know directly when I have done so. We all who come on your site, owe you a lot.
Hashem bless you and yours mightily.

Stella c.

Anonymous said...


I understand you are standing up for Devorah. That is good. But you must understand it does no good to pursue the conflict. Let it go. And yes, there are people things holy other than G-d. G-d is the Highest Wisdom the most indescribable, incomprehensible, Holiest Being like you stated but others have the ability also. Jews can be holy and many, untold numbers of Jews are holy. We are commanded to be holy by G-d Himself. And righteous Gentiles who separate themselves from the masses by clinging to G-d and doing His will can be considered holy. Holy means separate - 'set-aside.' Pursue righteousness and peace and do the right thing. Do not cultivate conflict. Anger is only proper when it is for a righteous purpose and not out of lack of control or ego.

Anonymous said...

Dear Annonymous, you are right that I am standing up for Devorah, for the simple reason that she said nothing wrong, but someone blasted her for speaking out. And why, pray tell, do you write "it does no good to pursue the conflict"- You see it as a conflict, but I see it as something else.
I will let it go, as you say, when people here stop their holier than thou attitudes.
O.K so G-d commands people to be Holy, I agree, but to attain that position, with Gd, I think would be difficult for us humans. But if you say so, o.k. I will not dispute this, since I do not know too much.
But somewhere in the Torah does not it say: Who is like You, Hashem, ... and there is more. See I have a lot to learn. But Devorah's site is not the place. But.... if someone continues to say that she, Devorah was wrong, then I shall continue to voice my opinion. And only when Devorah tells me to stop.. I will.

See, I am not mad, I am smiling Annonymous. :)

Stella c.

YY said...


I apologize for lashing out at you. The only reason I did so was because you need to understand that its not ok to speak how you feel about Rabbanim.

I understand and feel sorry that a Rabbi has betrayed your trust and badly mistreated you. There are people who call themselves Rabbi or have a beard that have nothing to do with being a real Rabbi. Unfortunately you were preyed upon by a phony. I can understand how this can leave you with feelings of mistrust for Rabbis in general. However that is completely unfair to Rabbanim as a whole. Most Rabbanim are good upstanding people who go beyond the call of duty and sacrifice their time and energy to their congregants, students as well as to anyone who seeks their help and guidance.

You do not know the Rabbanim who were at the Asifa and there were many there. I cant vouch for all of them but many are great people like Rav Matisyahu Solomon, Rav Dan Segal, the Skulener Rebbe, Rav Ephraim Wachsman and others.

Its really out of line and out of place to even insinuate that these people are "Erev Rav." You owe them all an apology.

This asifa was very much needed. You are a woman and you don't really comprehend the nisyonos of the internet to a male. Especially a Torah observant male who is supposed to be Kadosh, holy. A man is prohibited by Halacha to gaze at a woman or photograph of a woman (for pleasure) even when she is dressed 100% within the guidelines of modesty. So you can imagine that an unfiltered internet has robbed many Jews of their Kedusha even if they haven't gone to filthy sites.

Additionally, the internet is a cesspool of profanity, leitzanus, kefira and many other things. Unfortunately the internet has done a lot of harm to many many people.

For the sake of brevity I will leave it as is. However I urge you to watch the video clip of Rabbi wachsman's speech at the internet Asifa. Im sure you will have a different attitude after doing so. you should find it here.

Devorah said...

Thank you YY.

Devorah said...

I think this is the link you mean:

Devorah said...

I want to say one more thing: YY your comments above are very valid, and for me it just emphasizes even more how important it is for the gedolim to stand up and condemn criminal activities by other rabbis, so that we can then totally respect everything else they will advise us. If they ignore the worst cases in our society of abuse, they end up losing out altogether, as we cannot rely on them for JUSTICE, the cornerstone of our religion.