Tuesday, February 14, 2012

Response to ''Strait of Hormuz''

This is an interesting response from a reader, to Friday's posting Gog and Magog: The Strait of Hormuz

Guest post, authored by Joe.

I have a hypothesis that I would like to propose to all that might be interested.
I repeat that it is only a hypothesis.

First of all, I want to convey my deepest respect and awe for the Chazal of yesteryear and admit in all humility that they were far more advanced in their knowledge and understanding of holy scriptures. However, they had the greatest reference book of all, "The Tanakh." Their navigation through the Neviim was profound and they often spoke and communicated in the language of the Neviim. Their understanding however was limited to the world they lived in but with their spiritual eyes they were able to project that world mindset into the future.........the Ketz.

This is the world of the Navi. Zechariah, for instance when he projects the thought of Bavel and Zion's escape therefrom in Sefer Zechariah, chapter 2, is he talking about the "Bavel " that Yehudah had just returned from or was he talking about the future "Bavel" that would encapsulate all the qualities of a superpower? This is the language of the Navi.

When considering Batzrah and Hormuz and their relationship......may I suggest for your consideration, using the above language, that seeking Batzrah in Jordan and Southern Iraq may be far removed. Considering that modern day Edom is not east of Eretz Yisrael but refers to Rome / Xtianity / the West and that Batzrah means "fortress" and the controversy relates to Zion, I propose that this refers to the West.

There are miniscule Yehudim left in Arab counties since their expulsion after the 1948 War of Independence. However, the bulk of exiled world Jewry is in USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other European countries. Hence, the fortress aspect.

I formulate that whilst Islamic terrorism has been the visual face or front for aggressive attacks against Zion /Israel, the West has been flagrantly complicit in many more ways than one:

  • Who built up and armed Saddam Hussein during the Ten Year War with Iran ?
  • Who allowed Iran to become an Islamic Republic and state sponsor of terror in 1979?
  • Who let Saddam Hussein off the hook after the First Gulf War ?
  • Who built up the Mujahedin during their war against USSR ?
  • Who allowed Gaddafi to reinvent himself ?
  • Who allowed the demise of Gaddafi after he became an ally and Muslim Brotherhood to fill the void ?
  • Who allowed Yassar Arafat to project himself as a dove of peace and garner world support for a Palestinian State?
  • Who allowed the demise of Mubarak and the establishment of Muslim Brotherhood as the future government in Egypt?
  • Who allowed Iran to pursue its nuclear programme ?
  • Who put pressure on the Sharon government to instigate the Gerush from Gush Katif ?
  • Who allowed Chamas to be democratically elected in Gaza ?
  • Who allowed Hezbollah to rearm after the 2006 Levanon War ?
Who, who, who ?
Edom / Batzrah ..........and HaShem is preparing a sacrifice and slaughter.
I suggest reading the entire chapter of Ovadyah.

Yeshayahu talks about it in chapter 63 :

א מִי-זֶה בָּא מֵאֱדוֹם, חֲמוּץ בְּגָדִים מִבָּצְרָה, זֶה הָדוּר בִּלְבוּשׁוֹ, צֹעֶה בְּרֹב כֹּחוֹ; אֲנִי מְדַבֵּר בִּצְדָקָה, רַב לְהוֹשִׁיעַ. 1 'Who is this that cometh from Edom, with crimsoned garments from Bozrah? This that is glorious in his apparel, stately in the greatness of his strength?'--'I that speak in victory, mighty to save.'--
ב מַדּוּעַ אָדֹם, לִלְבוּשֶׁךָ; וּבְגָדֶיךָ, כְּדֹרֵךְ בְּגַת. 2 'Wherefore is Thine apparel red, and Thy garments like his that treadeth in the winevat?'--
ג פּוּרָה דָּרַכְתִּי לְבַדִּי, וּמֵעַמִּים אֵין-אִישׁ אִתִּי, וְאֶדְרְכֵם בְּאַפִּי, וְאֶרְמְסֵם בַּחֲמָתִי; וְיֵז נִצְחָם עַל-בְּגָדַי, וְכָל-מַלְבּוּשַׁי אֶגְאָלְתִּי. 3 'I have trodden the winepress alone, and of the peoples there was no man with Me; yea, I trod them in Mine anger, and trampled them in My fury; and their lifeblood is dashed against My garments, and I have stained all My raiment.
ד כִּי יוֹם נָקָם, בְּלִבִּי; וּשְׁנַת גְּאוּלַי, בָּאָה. 4 For the day of vengeance that was in My heart, and My year of redemption are come.

Yirmeyahu talks about it in chapters 48 and 49 :

כב הִנֵּה כַנֶּשֶׁר יַעֲלֶה וְיִדְאֶה, וְיִפְרֹשׂ כְּנָפָיו עַל-בָּצְרָה; וְהָיָה לֵב גִּבּוֹרֵי אֱדוֹם, בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא, כְּלֵב, אִשָּׁה מְצֵרָה. {פ} 22 Behold, he shall come up and swoop down as the vulture, and spread out his wings against Bozrah; and the heart of the mighty men of Edom at that day shall be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.
Amos talks about it in chapter 1

יב וְשִׁלַּחְתִּי אֵשׁ, בְּתֵימָן; וְאָכְלָה, אַרְמְנוֹת בָּצְרָה. {פ} 12 So will I send a fire upon Teman, and it shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.

And now to Hormuz. from Wikipedia :

Ahura Mazdā (also known as Ohrmazd, Ahuramazda, Hourmazd, Hormazd,Hurmuz, Aramazd and Azzandara) is the Avestan name for a divinity of the Old Iranian religion who was proclaimed the uncreated God by Zoroaster, the founder of Zoroastrianism. Ahura Mazda is described as the highest deity of worship in Zoroastrianism, along with being the first and most frequently invoked deity in the Yasna. The word Ahura means light and Mazda means wisdom. Thus Ahura Mazda is the lord of light and wisdom. Ahura Mazda is the creator and upholder of Arta (truth). Ahura Mazda is an omniscient (though not omnipotent) god, who would eventually destroy evil.

So what is the connection ?
Have a look at the map of the Persian Gulf and the "Straits" of Hormuz and you will notice a womb-shaped Gulf with the Straits of Hormuz resembling the constriction of the birth canal.

May I suggest that the constriction of child birth in delivering Mashiach will come from The True G-d of Light who upholds truth and will eradicate evil.

Batzrah /Edom / The "Fortress" West will be the recipient and the wine press of HaShem's fury since they are the cause not the effect of all of Israel's woes and HaShem requires the release of His people from the fortress.

Iran declared last Friday, the 33rd anniversary of its foundation, that the world will get a big surprise over the next couple of days.

Al Capone's Chicago bloodbath on Valentine's Day will be chicken feed compared to what is coming for the West, and I don't mean long stemmed roses, either.


Moriah said...

This post gave made me tremble inside..

ALL of the West has been relentlessly pressuring Israel to commit suicide for "peace." The West are the idols in psalm 135 when it comes to the evil being done to the House of Israel: "They have mouths, but they speak not; they have eyes, but they see not; they have ears, but they heed not." When the nations say 'peace' they mean a world without Israel.

Joe, are you referring to the place just below Hormuzgan?


Anonymous said...

Interesting hypothesis.
Very good that you recognise the importance of accurate DEFINITIONS. Accuracy of any tanak exegeses is absolutely dependent on accuracy of DEFINITIONS.

You have only scratched the surface and most of your definitions are off in my opinion. The problem with your hypothesis and with a lot of Jewish exegesis including the sages (who BTW can be wrong) is the IMPROPER DEFINITION of JACOB, ISRAEL, ZION, EDOM, JERUSALEM. THE distinction between JACOB and ISRAEL is especially critical.

The GLOBAL scope of the imminent redemption from Egypt as opposed to the localized redemption of a few from ancient Egypt is another factor mostly ignored by analysts. Ezekiel 20 shows the similarity and the global scope of the imminent redemption. However to fully get the picture the current Egypt, it's Pharaoh, "wilderness of the people" (Ez.20:35) has to be accurately defined.

I like your use of the word HYPOTHESIS, I call mine GUESSES. There's nothing wrong with guesses/hypothesis as long as they are recognized as guesses/hypothesis and NOT absolute truth.

Leah said...

Anonymous, will you please identify yourself? If you are able to explain what the dif between Israel and Jacob is and your source so that others can have it to check it out that would be wonderful. Thank you.

Joe said...

Shalom Moriah,

Amen to your comments on Psalm 135.

Rather than trying to emphasize a pin point geographical position, the "Strait " of Hormuz represents a spiritual conceptual reality.

For the West the closing of this strait means a choke point for the supply of black oil that feeds the flesh of its material world.

For Iran the closing of this strait presents an opportunity to inflict the possible demise of the West by undermining its need for the black oil and thus creating financial and civil chaos. In their eyes this will hasten the coming of the Madhi, 12th Iman to inaugurate Islamic Sharia law worldwide.

However, HaShem will use the constriction posed by this confrontation between Edom and Paras to bring about the arrival of Mashiach Tzidkeinu through the birth canal amidst the anguish of Chevlei Mashiach - Birth Pangs of Mashiach.

The choice is ours......do we suckle on the black oil of materialism that sustains our transient fleshly desires or do we attach ourselves to the golden oil of Torah Menorah that feeds our eternal neshama. The True G-d of Light who upholds truth will eradicate the evil of sheker.

Have a nice day.

Joe said...

Anonymous, I do hope that you are not part of replacement - displacement theology.
If so, 2000 years of these lies have been burdened by the Jews. Rather than questioning the validity of HaShem's ultimate truth of His Torah, His People and His Land, the thrust of my hypothesis was directed at the West and Islam......not whether your definitions or guesses were in keeping with your delusions.

Israel, as always is the meat in the sandwich as a consequence of Western policy and in her hour of need she does need a back handed lesson on definitions of who she
is, where she is at and the questioning of her Sages.

The microscope of Divine scrutiny will not only search current events but will minutely unravel the events of the past 2000 years since the destruction of the second Temple.

יב וַיַּעַן מַלְאַךְ-יְהוָה, וַיֹּאמַר, יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, עַד-מָתַי אַתָּה לֹא-תְרַחֵם אֶת-יְרוּשָׁלִַם וְאֵת עָרֵי יְהוּדָה--אֲשֶׁר זָעַמְתָּה, זֶה שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה. 12 Then the angel of the LORD spoke and said: 'O LORD of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have compassion on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which Thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
יג וַיַּעַן יְהוָה, אֶת-הַמַּלְאָךְ הַדֹּבֵר בִּי--דְּבָרִים טוֹבִים: דְּבָרִים, נִחֻמִים. 13 And the LORD answered the angel that spoke with me with good words, even comforting words--
יד וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלַי, הַמַּלְאָךְ הַדֹּבֵר בִּי, קְרָא לֵאמֹר, כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת: קִנֵּאתִי לִירוּשָׁלִַם וּלְצִיּוֹן, קִנְאָה גְדוֹלָה. 14 so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy;
טו וְקֶצֶף גָּדוֹל אֲנִי קֹצֵף, עַל-הַגּוֹיִם הַשַּׁאֲנַנִּים, אֲשֶׁר אֲנִי קָצַפְתִּי מְּעָט, וְהֵמָּה עָזְרוּ לְרָעָה. 15 and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil.
טז לָכֵן כֹּה-אָמַר יְהוָה, שַׁבְתִּי לִירוּשָׁלִַם בְּרַחֲמִים--בֵּיתִי יִבָּנֶה בָּהּ, נְאֻם יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת; וקוה (וְקָו) יִנָּטֶה, עַל-יְרוּשָׁלִָם. 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem.

No problems with definitions here!!

As for me....I stand with Jacob/ Israel/ Judah/ Jerasalem.

Anonymous said...

I am not part of replacement - displacement theology.
Criticism is good, helped me avoid being trapped in dogma/inherited truths freeing my mind to search.

No one's tanak interpretations/analysis/hypothesis are INFALLIBLE. Only two persons (from the beginning to the end of time) have ABSOLUTELY INFALLIBLE tanak interpretation/analysis/teaching -that is Moshe and the imminent Mashiac who are taught by Hashem direct.

I have found that the tanak is a book that can only be understood MOSTLY by divine revelation the deeper you go. The intellect can only help pose questions or at best develop a method of questioning. However the intellect is SEVERELY LIMITED in answering those questions. Unfortunately the intellect will always supply an answer no matter what. Discerning the source of an answer (intellect or divine revelation) is a monumental hurdle that only Hashem can help one cross. It takes a lot of discipline and humility to set aside a nice looking/"accurate" answer and keep searching -it's not easy.

Accepted wrong answers in one portion of the tanak necessarily affects the accuracy of the analysis/understanding of another portion. A good example relevant to your hypothesis is :why would Hashem call the patriarch Jacob twice in Bereishit 46.2 and the man answered when Hashem already changed his name to Israel in Bereishit 35.10.

Anonymous said...

The Chafetz Chaim said that Gog v Magog would last 70 years. Those 70 years finish now.

Isaiah. 63:1 says מי זה בא...this is roshei taivos:
ישראל מאיר בן אריה זאב הכהן
[which is the name of the Chofetz Chaim].

מי זה בא - Who is this that comes...
Rashi says it's referring to Hashem, Ibn Ezra says it's referring to Moshiach or the Angel Michael.
It is agreed that it is the death of the Sar of Edom.

Anonymous said...

Leah said...

Anonymous, will you please identify yourself? If you are able to explain what the dif between Israel and Jacob is and your source so that others can have it to check it out that would be wonderful. Thank you.

I can't share my GUESSES on a blog.
My identity is not IMPORTANT -please believe me. Thanks for asking though. Shalom

Anonymous said...

Let everyone guess and be wrong. Those who know don't say and those who say don't know. It's a lot of fun and an enjoyable hobby for people to make things up and twist tanach to come up with their own imaginary version of what will happen and when moshiach will come. Don't take any of these bloggers too seriously. Especially one who won't put his real name behind his absurd claims.

Leah said...

Thank you to both anonymous's for writing back. Yes, I ask for names and the sources as a wayto give a person a chance to show their sources and to allow that others can check their facts.
Yes,I make it a point to read yet not to believe without doing the background work. I ask so that others will be able to do the same...

Devorah said...

More on Hormuz at Geula Update Rav Fish Mishpatim