Friday, February 10, 2012

Gog and Magog: The Strait of Hormuz

Received via email [Yosef Kaner] - free translation from the Hebrew 

Rav Yekutiel Fish posted an interesting quote from Rabbi Shlomo Ephraim from Luntschitz [who lived in the 16th and 17th centuries, more commonly known as the "Kli Yakar"] in his Kli Paz, indicating that the Milchemet [war of] Gog and Magog will be centered in an area he calls Hormuz...... 

In the sefer Kli Paz "The Vessel of Pure Gold" from the commentry Kli Yakar, who was a Rosh Rabbonim [head of the rabbis] in the land of Israel 400 years ago, ''that there will be a sacrifice in Basra'' [Isaiah 34] that should be in the war of Gog and Magog and that it should happen or occur in a place by Basra named Hormuz. And the Navi's words since the sacrifice to Hashem in Basra and the great slaughtering in the land of Edom and it will descend, animals with them and cattle with Abirim [the strong healthy bulls] since the day of vengeance is to G-d and the completion of years of fighting Zion.. And it says ''the animals will descend with them'' to tell you there are many kings in the remaining nations that will join with Edom to help him and the slaughtering to G-d in Basra - a country with a distance from Bavel - its name is Basra and it is next to Asher which is Assyria and Persia in between the boundary of the land of Edom - The Hormuz - and today it is under the rulership of Yishmael and blessed is the one who knows the truth of these things. However it will be there - the war in the end of days.

וְהֶרְאוּנִי דָּבָר מַבְהִיל בְּסֵפֶר 'כְּלִי פָּז' מִבַּעַל הַ'כְּלִי יָקָר' שֶׁהָיָה רֹאשׁ הָרַבָּנִים בְּאֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל לִפְנֵי כְּאַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת שָׁנָה (ישעי' לד) שֶׁהַ"זֶבַח לַה' בְּבָצְרָה" שֶׁיִּהְיֶה בְּמִלְחֶמֶת גּוֹג וּמָגוֹג יִתְרַחֵשׁ בְּמָקוֹם עַל יַד בַּצְרָה שֶׁשְּׁמוֹ הוּרְמוּז. וְנָבִיא אֶת דְּבָרָיו "כִּי זֶבַח לַה' בְּבָצְרָה וְטֶבַח גָּדוֹל בְּאֶרֶץ אֱדוֹם, וְיָרְדוּ רְאֵמִים עִמָּם וּפָרִים עִם אַבִּירִים וְגוֹ', כִּי יוֹם נָקָם לַה' שְׁנַת שִׁלּוּמִים לְרִיב צִיּוֹן". וְאָמַר "וְיָרְדוּ רְאֵמִים עִמָּם וְכוּ'', לְהַגִּיד שֶׁהַרְבֵּה מְלָכִים מִשַּׁאר הָאֻמּוֹת יִתְחַבְּרוּ עִם אֱדוֹם לְעָזְרָם. "כִּי זֶבַח לַה' בְּבָצְרָה", מְדִינָה יֵשׁ רָחוֹק מִבָּבֶל שְׁמָהּ בָּצְרָה, וְהִיא בֵּין גְּבוּל אֲשׁוּר וּפָרַס וּבֵין גְּבוּל אֶרֶץ אֱדוֹם, הוּרְמוּז, וְהִיא הַיּוֹם תַּחַת מֶמְשֶׁלֶת הַיִּשְׁמָעֵאלִים. וּבָרוּךְ הַיּוֹדֵעַ אֲמִתָּתָם שֶׁל דְּבָרִים, אוּלַי יִהְיֶה דֶּרֶךְ שָׁם הַמִּלְחָמָה בְּאַחֲרִית הַיָּמִים"


Dov Bar-Leib said...

Yes, Devorah? The Strait of Hormuz links the Persian Gulf to the Indian Ocean. Basra is at the confluence of the Hiddekel (Tigris) and the Prat (Euphrates) at the northern tip of the Persian Gulf where Iraq touches the Persian Gulf. I guess I need an explanation on how Basra and the Strait of Hormuz are geographically next to each other when they are at opposite ends of the Persian Gulf. Now one can make the argument that the one who controls Basra controls 55% of the world's sweet oil reserves because the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers which flow from Gan Eden have carried throughout time the majority of decomposed organic waste in the world from Eden and deposited this "waste" as oil along the banks of those two rivers and at the mouth of those two rivers along the shores of the Persian Gulf. So at the end of Days the West, who no longer merits blessing from the dew of Heaven, is left only with the shmanei ha'aretz (the oil of the earth) which they have even if the West has no more merit in Heaven. Yet, the Strait of Hormuz is the choke point that has to be crossed for supertankers to deliver this sweet crude to the rest of the world (especially if the pipeline through Turkey stops operating). Yet, Hormuz and Basra are at opposite ends of the same Gulf. So if the central focus is Hormuz, how does that constitute a slaughter in Basra, a few hundred miles to the north??

Finrod said...

Iran controls the Strait of Hormuz and has major influence in the goings on of Iraq where Basra's entirely possible that an event, perhaps even a ground battle between Western and Iranian forces will take place in Basra (after all, the West knows Basra pretty well for that is where the Brits were stationed during the Iraq War) in conjunction with the closing of the Straits of Hormuz which would probably be the initial catalyst to set off actual hostilities...I dunno, just guessing.

Jesterhead45 said...


I've read a plot involving NATO/US/Israel/Others where Syria (plus Iran) gets invaded with Israel being required to give up the Golan and take in Alawite refugees in order to prevent them getting massacred by the Western-backed Muslim Brotherhood (along with of course returning to the 48 borders and giving up half/all of Jerusalem).

If there is any truth to the above plot (see link below), I was wondering if you could look at such a plot from a Torah / Geulah perspective?

yaak said...

This is what I replied last week to one of 2 people who emailed me this "find":

It can also be found in a better version of the Keli Paz here:

However, this says nothing about a war in Hormuz. It's saying that maybe the war will be via Basra - not Hormuz or the Strait of Hormuz.

Hormuz was the kingdom that was taken over by the Portuguese - Edom - in the 16th century. This kingdom was from the Island of Hormuz and throughout the Persian Gulf. The Portuguese tried to take over Basra, but failed. It's saying that Basra, in the 16th century, was between the Kingdom of Hormuz and Persia and Assyria.

See here:

In September 1507, the Portuguese Afonso de Albuquerque landed on the island. Portugal occupied Ormuz from 1515 to 1622. It was during the Portuguese occupation of the island that the Mandaeans first came to western attention. The Mandaeans were fleeing persecution in the vilayet of Baghdad (which, at the time, included Basra) and Khuzestan in Iran. When the Portuguese first encountered them, they mistakenly identified them as "St. John Christians," analogous to the St. Thomas Christians of India. The Mandaeans, for their part, were all too willing to take advantage of the confusion, offering to accept papal authority and Portuguese suzerainty if the Portuguese would invade the Ottoman Empire and liberate their coreligionists. The Portuguese were attracted by the prospect of what appeared to be a large Christian community under Muslim rule. It was not until after the Portuguese had committed themselves to the conquest of Basra that they came to realize that the Mandaeans were not what they claimed to be.
As vassals of the Portuguese state, the Kingdom of Ormus jointly participated in the 1521 invasion of Bahrain that ended Jabrid rule of the Persian Gulf archipelago. The Jabrid ruler was nominally a vassal of Ormus, but the Jabrid King, Muqrin ibn Zamil had refused to pay the tribute Ormus demanded, prompting the invasion under the command of the Portuguese conqueror, António Correia.[2] In the fighting for Bahrain, most of the combat was carried out by Portuguese troops, while the Ormusi admiral, Reis Xarafo, looked on.[3] The Portuguese ruled Bahrain through a series of Ormusi governors. However, the Sunni Ormusi were not popular with Bahrain's Shia population which suffered religious disadvantages,[4] prompting rebellion. In one case, the Ormusi governor was crucified by rebels,[5] and Portuguese rule came to an end in 1602 after the Ormusi governor, who was a relative of the Ormusi king,[6] started executing members of Bahrain's leading families.[7]
After the Portuguese made several abortive attempts to seize control of Basra, the Safavid ruler Abbas I of Persia conquered the kingdom with the help of the English, and expelled the Portuguese from the rest of the Persian Gulf, with the exception of Muscat. The Portuguese returned to the Persian Gulf in the following year as allies of Afrasiyab, the Pasha of Basra, against the Persians. Afrasiyab was formerly an Ottoman vassal but had been effectively independent since 1612. They never returned to Ormus.

Anonymous said...

I think you are mistaken where Bozrah is:

Anonymous said...

The article was first posted at Arutz Sheva

Dov Bar-Leib said...

Yes, the p'shat on Batzrah is that it is the ancient capital of Edom in or around the more recent Nabatean city of Petra in SW Jordan. It is a favorite for Israeli backpackers who like to walk in from the Israeli/ Jordanian border, hitch a ride into Jordan for a few miles, then wind their way on foot through the craggy tall cliffs on both sides until they reach the city built into the walls of one of the cliffs. Some say it is the nearby city of Busseira, which seems to be in a plain and is less likely the ancient Edomite capital. Botzrah means fortress, and a capital city built into the side of a cliff is better situated to be a fortress than something that is translated as sheepfold. I fail to understand how a Semitic root which means "to harvest grapes" or "fortress" can mean sheepfold. Yet, neither Petra or Busseira have any modern importance for the End of Days, and neither has importance for Western Civilization (Edom) at the End of Days. Along comes the tenth Century Spanish Halakhic poet Dunash ben Labrat who was both a Grammarian and a close friend and personal student to Rav Saadiah Gaon. Born in Fez, he spent most of his youth in Baghdad studying with Rav Sa'adiah Gaon. In his famous poem/song Dror Yikrah in the third verse, he directly ties Basra in modern Iraq to Baghdad with the famous verse and paraphrasing of Isaiah: "Tread the winepress in the midst of Batzrah and also in Bavel which was strong (at one time.)" The Batzrah referred to here is obviously the Basra at the mouth of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers as they enter the Persian Gulf. The S sound in Arabic often originates from the Hebrew Tsadee as we see in the Arabic Masri which means Mitzri (Egyptian) in the more ancient Hebrew. So the End of Days reference to Batzrah mentioned twice in Isaiah most likely refers to this modern Iraqi port city at the confluence of two of the four cities from the Garden of Eden. Yes, the British were there ready to be slaughtered for closing the borders to Israel in 1939 just before the Holocaust. If the British had just controlled their own borders it would have been their own business, but by closing the borders to E. Yisrael just before the Shoah, they made their business into G-d's business. And Chamberlain upon doing so was just shogeig. Yea, really. He had no idea that Hitler had a solution of genocide. He spends months in Yemach Shmo's company negotiating a pact of non-aggression and had no idea what Hitler intended for the Jews. Yea, really. Yemach shmo to Hitler and his buddy Neville too. one and the same made of the same cloth. We just have to figure out why perchance it did not happen when the kinder and gentler Gog ben Gog was the US President, and the British could have been slaughtered right then and there when the rasha Tony Blair was PM. Maybe too many of us were all too willing to bring misery upon 10,000 hearty faithful Jews from Gaza and the northern Shomron in order to fulfill our own purposes at their expense, putting another 300,000 into direct and more accurate missile fire. In short for the umpteenth time and probably the last time we blew an Achishena opportunity, and that time it was a basic test of common decency. Thank G-d this time is for keeps as unpleasant as b'itah without Achishena may turn out to be. But Obama looks like a stinky 11th horn rather than a classier Gog. And his name of all things means U.F.O. Hmm

Anonymous said...


"Maybe too many of us were all too willing to bring misery upon 10,000 hearty faithful Jews from Gaza..."

You always mention the lack of human decency in regard to The Expulsion. Not all failed the crucial test. Some did the right thing. Some traveled across the world to be there for GP.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, this Parush on Isaiah was not written by the Kli Yakar whi is Rav Shlomo Efraim ben Aron Luntschitz, but wa written by Rav Shmuel ben Avraham Leeyanato.

Anonymous said...

Despite being attributed to the wrong author -- it is truly amazing what the Kli PAZ WROTE that I have said is destined to begin this Rosh Chodesh Elul 5772, involving EMP devices, causing, as the autistics have written, for the fiat currencies of EDOM (EUROPA) TO DISAPPEAR INSIDE THE COMPUTERS. Combine that with nuclear radiation which will be the "fallout" of having no electricity in certain areas causing melt downs of nuclear reactors (as Ben Artzi has forecasted), this will conclude the final war of "three wars of great confusion" (Yalkut Shimoni/Pirkei DeRebbi Eliezer)against Yishmael via the hands of Edom, at the very End of Days.

Get out of paper money and Buy Gold ($1720) and Silver ($33.50) and Oil ($100.00)

Dov Bar-Leib said...

It is kind of amusing that Paz is an Israeli oil/gasoline company, and Paz in Hebrew means "fine gold". And in order for silver to shoot pass $50 per ounce, JP Morgan Chase will have to summarily file for bankruptcy because they hold such a short position on silver and they simply do not have enough money to cover their short position above $50 per ounce. So the silver that I have will finally skyrocket in value, and my Chase credit cards will stop working at the same time. nice trade off. And with silver one can do certain mitzvot too.

Anonymous said...

"So the silver that I have will finally skyrocket in value"

Interesting.. The money we have is literally disappearing. We now have $38.53 in saving but today when I was out in the shed I found some antique silver utensils, tarnished in a box-many ounces. I was looking to find things to get rid of and things to sell. We really don't have money but Hashem is blessing us in so many ways. I guess I should be more worried but I'm not. Thank G-d!

Devorah said...

WASHINGTON: In escalating war of words, US defence secretary Leon Panetta has warned Iran that "all options" are on the table if Tehran blocks the Straits of Hormuz or if it goes nuclear.

"We've made clear that we will not tolerate an Iran that tries to block the Straits of Hormuz. A fifth of the oil of the world goes through those straits. They're international waters. We're not going to allow them to block that," he warned.

Read more: ‘All options on table if Iran goes nuclear’

Blog Commenting said...

Iran should block this route, the west will then suffer with less ol supply.