Wednesday, May 23, 2012

Why Tzadikim Atone for Us All

Regarding the Horrific tragedy in Northern Israel of the Atias family zt"l

Question: How can the death of a Tzaddik become a Kapparah [atonement]?
Answer by Rabbi Elchanan Lewis

Answer: The Tzadik is not a personal individual that has an impact only on himself, he is a public figure who impacts on all those around him; the loss of a Tzadik is therefore a public loss, not an individual or family one. The Tzadikim are here not for themselves, rather for others - that is how they live their lives and that is how they also die; Just as the death serves as atonement to the deceased himself, so the departure of a Tzadik does to his community.

Also see: A Kapora for Am Yisrael


DrM said...

Didn't Jesus die to atone for our sins? Isn't it Wierd these kinds of "Jewish" ideas arise in ashkenaz lands which are predominately chriastian and not in sephardoc circles? Would love everyone's thoughts.

Devorah said...

JC atoned for OUR sins? I don't think so. That is a Christian teaching, and of course they took it from the Torah, manipulating it to resemble their truth.

So Sefardim don't believe that a tzadik's death is a kapara? What is their explanation then? Do you speak for all Sefardim?

DrM said...

The earliest of this idea in Jewish writings is thousand years after the Christians said it. That makes it Jews took it this idea from Christians. Show me sources in our literature that this if valid.

Absolutely not god forbid, sephadeim don't have these ideas. Look at the gaonim rishonim writings.

Chronology alone tells you a lot Devorah.

Devorah said...

''A great decree from Shamayim'' says Rabbi Eli Mansour - a Sefardi as you know.
He was talking about the murders of Leiby Kletzy a"h and Baba Elazar a"h and he drew a connection between the gay marriages/gay parades in NY and Israel at the time. In other words, these deaths/murders were kaparot.

Shiur is here:

DrM said...

Eli mansour is a black hat sephardi raised in the ashkenaozed world. those comparisons are also very sad to hear.

I asked for a rishon atleast. Notsome shmucky rabbi in 2012.

I thought u would atleast whip out Talmud yerushalmi yoma on me. Wink wink

Devorah said...

I'm no talmud chacham, so I can't oblige you with your last suggestion.

As for the comment about a shmucky rabbi in 2012..... I think you just revealed your true feelings.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you never seem to comment in a positive way, which makes me think you have a major hostility towards certain kinds of Jews who do not fall in with your way of thinking.

DrM said...

I lean towards more ancient writings of our hachamim, weed out pagan infleunces, and speak up when I see crap. Is it "not Jewish" if I am critical?

Btw I was asking your crowd not just you.

Devorah said...

''My crowd"" is also your crowd. We're all part of one big family. There are different ways of asking a question, just like the four sons at Pesach... one of whom is described as wicked.

If you have knowledge [and I know that you do], why do you try to undermine classic Jewish teachings, and place doubt in peoples' minds?
Is that your intention?

When great rebbes tell us that tzadikim die as an atonement, who are you or I to argue with them? We can ask questions to clarify the subject, but taking them on and suggesting their stand is simply following the teachings of Christianity is outrageous.

So once again, I can only assume you wish to destroy, rather than create.
Which leaves you very much in the realm of the Anonymous commenter I wrote about today, even though you are brave enough to name yourself, your words are sounding very ANTI-yiddishkeit.

As I do not know you personally, I don't know if you are a good guy, or a bad guy, I can only make assumptions based on the things you write here.
I know you are a healer [doctor] in real life, and yet spiritually you seem to be doing the opposite.
Just an observation.

Hopefully someone with real Torah knowledge will comment on this.

DrM said...

Yikes. Anyone else?

Moriah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Devorah said...

Yaak has the response here:
''Talmidei Hachamim suffering for the sins of the generation is not something another religion made up - it was stolen from Jewish belief and then bastardized.''

Read the post here: The Righteous Suffering for the Generation - a Jewish Concept

Huvs said...

Well we know that the assara harugey malchut were killed to be mechaper the sin of the 10 shevatim who sold yosef. It is meforash in the story in the gemara.

Anonymous said...

huvs, when were the meforach written? again chronology.

Anonymous said...

"huvs, when were the meforach written? again chronology."

What does that mean? These things remain in the past and don't happen today? There is not sin or atonement today? That the Jewish life and soul are not bound up in History? Does that mean that halachah written thousands of years ago does not apply to us today because so many years have passed? Instead of wiping out thousands Hashem takes the holiest from us hoping that we will understand the "meaning" in a so-called "meaningless" death.