Monday, June 18, 2012

Moshiach on a Donkey

Art: Elhanan Ben-Avraham

Moshe complains about the accusations hurled against him and says, "Lo Chamor Echad Meihem Nasasi", I didn't even take a single donkey from them [Korach 16:15]. Rashi says this refers to when he came down to Mitzrayim to redeem them on a donkey, and he paid for it from his own money. Rav Shimon Schwab asks, why would Moshe think that he should have taken the money from Bnei Yisroel.

Rav Schwab answers that the gemara in Sanhedrin [98a] says that when the geula comes, if we are zocheh [deserving] Moshiach will arrive on clouds, if not then Moshiach will come come as a pauper on a donkey. Why? The whole world needs to know that Hashem is bringing the geula and Moshiach has no power by himself. If Bnei Yisroel are Maaminim and Ovdei Hashem then Moshiach can come in grand fashion and we will all place thanks in Hashem and not Moshiach. But if we do not recognize Hashem's hand, then Hashem will need to send a Moshiach who is powerless and destitute to show that it is not his charisma, brains, or money that will release us from the galus.

Moshe was the Goel in Mitzrayim. Bnei Yisroel was not zocheh and Moshe came riding into town on a donkey lacking any pomp or grandeur. He came with the stick in his hand and the shirt on his back. To show his poverty he should have asked Bnei Yisroel to pay for his donkey. Even then he did not, since he did not want to take anything from any member of Klal Yisroel.



Anonymous said...

Doesn't Daniel give us a clue as to when we should expect Moshiach? He seems to give a time table in chapter 9, verses 24-27.

Joe said...

Shalom Anon,

This is not Christian eschatology and this verse that you quoted is used repeatedly by missionaries as proof as to their assumed validity of their messiah.It is not discussed by Jewish Rabbis in this context and has nothing to do with the article posted by Devorah.

Are you a Christian ? If so :

Has transgression finished?, Has sin ended? , Has iniquity been forgiven?, Has everlasting righteousness been brought in", Has vision and prophet been sealed, and Has the most holy place been anointed ?

NO!!! So please visit your Christian sites and do not bring your opinions here.They are not welcomed especially out of context, which by the way is a constant trait of this false religion.

Have a nice day.

Leah said...

Thank you. Yasher koach, Joe.

Anonymous said...

You believe that Moshiach is coming, on a donkey or otherwise, as do I. I did not ask this from a Christian perspective. You assumed (wrongly) that I was a Christian because missionaries refer to these verses. Guess what? They are not the only ones who have read these verses. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who have read them that are not J4J missionaries or the like.

If you believe that Moshiach, what is your interpretation of these verses? It was a simple question. There is no need, and no justification, for anger or violence.

Anonymous said...


Too many jump to conclusions. This is not the time to get angry. Even if someone is wrong. correct them kindly.
I had written asking Joe to do just that, speak or write softly. My comment was ignored. That is alright. Its the bloggers perogative.
All I a saying is Jews, Hashems' Chosen, you are to be the light to the rest of us,please, I am not christian, I am Noahide, so all I am saying is be a light. By writing angry replies, even if it had to be a jc follower, speak/write in a softer tone. First find out what the person might actually mean.
Dear Blogger, I mean no harm. There are so many wanting to know so much, I for one, found this site very informative, I hope it will stay the good site it is meant to be.
stella c.

Genoism said...

If you guys want to know about moshiach, listen to the lecture here:
This is pretty much a compilation of everything that we do understand about moshiach, including the times that he can come. It has a few bits that we don't understand but mostly focuses on what we can understand.

Anonymous said...

May Melech Ha'Moshiach - King Mosiah - come swiftly! And may all Jews be 'flown' to Jerusalem on the wings of eagles - or is it - on clouds of glory - to the holy city of Jerusalem in the holy land of Israel.
As well, may all good people live in good health and perfect peace and find great prosperity and blessing in all that they do...

Joe said...

In response to Anon :
No anger or violence just cold hard facts. I elucidated my position quite clearly and will again reiterate it.
What has Daniel 9v24-27 got to do with the article that Devorah wrote ?
Why would you bring this up in the first place?
What is the context and or association?

"There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who have read them that are not J4J missionaries or the like,"

..... but not withstanding they are still believers in JC.These verses in Sefer Daniel have been twisted and interpolated by the hundreds of millions and the like to categorically state that the Mashiach has already come based on the alleged timetable that you whimsically stated.
They will openly state that they are not Christians but Messianics who "in their own way" follow the Torah. Their claims are masked with love of Torah and the Jewish people and yet feel that Rabbinic Orthodoxy has somehow got it all wrong and that the Jewish people need to hear the "real truth." This is the true violence and the disputations and debates of 500 years ago are resurfacing albeit under a different guise but just as dangerous, if not more. Just like sugar coating.

Anon, I do not know your affiliations, but by asking a loaded question out of context, leads one to believe that you are positing to extract a certain response.

Well, I did give you a response :

Has transgression finished?, Has sin ended? , Has iniquity been forgiven?, Has everlasting righteousness been brought in", Has vision and prophet been sealed, and Has the most holy place been anointed ?

and of course you did not agree, hence your accusations of anger and violence. This only proves the smarmy tone in your leading question. It will only lead to your predetermined outcome, which by the way, is quite obvious.

If you want me to expand these verses a little more to expose the mask I am more than obliging. However, I suggest that there are hundreds of millions of people around the world who want to hear this take. This is not the forum. May I suggest J4Judaism and the like.

See............. no anger or violence...............Have a nice day.

Joe said...

Shalom Stella,

I was not angry but to the point. How can one write softly ????
I mean no harm but this is not the forum to debate or discuss foreign eschatology.
As I suggested to Anon, J4Judaism would be more appropriate.

We all want to learn. However, the hardest task is to unlearn.
I would not question the integrity of Devorah's site but rather the motives of those that posit questions in disguise.
Emet- truth speaks for itself.......and sometimes the answer hurts but it is what we need to hear.

Keep on keeping on and do not allow myself or others to spoil your enthusiasm. Devorah's site will withstand.

Tidbits of Torah said...

Might I reply to Anon on Daniel 9v24-27? This is from Rabbi Tovia Singer's book Let's Get Biblical (In Depth Bible Study). The "meat" is knowing the chronological chart of Daniel chapter 9 and Jeremiah's two 70 year prophecies Jeremiah 25:12 and 29:10

Who tampered with the King James Version (KJV) The original 1611 edition of the KJV correctly separates the 7 weeks from the 62 weeks in Daniel 9:25 with a semicolon. The current KJV, however, deceptively compresses these two separate time periods into one commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks."

Those who revised the KJV altered the punctuation of Daniel 9:25 in order to change the message of Gabriel's prophecy. By combining "7 weeks" with "62 weeks" into one period of 69 weeks, xtian translators create the notion in the mind of their readers that there is only one "messiah" spoken of in the 9th chapter of Daniel rather than two.

Until 1885, however, the KJV correctly separated these two time frames, so that it was clear that the angel Gabriel spoke spoke of two different anointed ones. The first anointed ruler (Cyrus) who arises after 49 years, and a second who is anointed and removed after a subsequent 434 years (the high priest)

Moriah said...

"sometimes the answer hurts but it is what we need to hear."

The Truth has a certain ring to it and sometimes a sting to it.

I for one appreciate the Truth and don't mind righteous indignation directed to the clever, sly questions of those who come here to attempt to put a wedge between a Jew and his G-d.

Anonymous said...

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Shalom Joe and anybody who agrees with what you said- (I do- in a way), its just that the way your words were typed out, that sent an instant message, saying, (thats how i saw it)- "I am better, than you, I am a Jew, you are nothing, so do not come to this blog, and say things, that we self righteous Jews, do not want to hear"

You say thats not how you meant etc; but thats the reason I say, one must watch what comes out from our minds, into our mouths and into our fingers.

You know, I went to
and i urge all who love that place to hear Rabbi Yossi Bosoussan's lectures there. The one of 17th June was excellent.

This now I am directing to Hashem: and I am typing it out here, in case, through one of you I get an answer, because thats how I have gotten Hashems answers through people, or just a lecture or reading.
Hashem - Do you despise all of your other human beings that You created, because you did not choose us to be a Jew? Sometimes, Hashem, your people make me feel so special, sometimes they make me feel like a horrid worm, not worth anything. I know Hashem, I should not feel that way, but I am still searching you out, and its something that will carry on, trying to know You, Hashem, till I hopefully meet You face to face, or will You not allow that, because I am not of Your very Holy Nation?
Thank You Hashem.
This here is
Stella c.

Devorah said...

Stella: Joe is not Jewish. Does that put a different perspective on everything?
And it is BECAUSE he is not Jewish that he can see things that some of us Jews can't see - he's been there, done that, so to speak.
I am the naivest person you will ever find, so I appreciate all the input.

Anonymous said...

I stand corrected. Even though he, Joe, is not a Jew, he should or could have voiced his opiion in a softer way.

I, apologise to you and Joe and anyone else when I jumped the gun, and let off steam. Maybe I should become more humble. I really mean that.
I love this blog, I love so many other Jewish sites. I am a slow learner? Perhaps, ... I will practise what I 'preach' out here. I mean I shall not give in to what I first feel, but will chew over it, and try and understand what anyone here is writing.
After all we are all trying to live a life that Hashem wants from each of us.
Again, forgive me Devorah, and all you other lovely people.
Now I will go hear one more lecture, (Devorah, not kidding, wish you would have a question site, where one could ask and get replies, and learn) This week, Gd willing my promise to you will be completed. Amain.

stella c.

Moshe said...

that is the mahloket leshem shamaim or not. we know yoshka is mamzer and he will never to be appointed one. it is true that o lot of missionaries in this world and we have to be aware of negative information and it is like negative news or negative sights(things that we are not allowed to see, we have to shield our eyes) that person may accept as a truth and think and say things also leshem shamaim and not to realize that he is not right. it is started from Korah who wanted to switch left side with the right one. so once again, Baruch Hashem in every generations we have hahamim to whom listen to, and be aware that in many jewish blogs like other news there is false information, that can affect you negatively, that is why our hahamim told us of the danger of the internet like many other psychics that may affect us. Bad thing, that a lot of naive people suffer of that and that is their mistake because they read or listen to something that is not supposed to be.
Shabbat Shalom.

Genoism said...

The truth only stings when we are afraid of becoming better. I for one welcome criticism regardless of how much some people tell me it may "hurt". Otherwise, how else am I going to become better. It may take me a long time to realize for example, that I get angry easily unless someone tells me and at which point I'll introspect and realize it's true.

Genoism said...

You know, when God offered the Torah to all the nations, the vast majority of each nation declined. Only the Jews accepted it - in majority. But what happened to all those minorities within the the vast majority? They may have said yes to God but did not get the Torah because the majority said no.

I don't remember the source but from what I learned, God offered all those who wanted the Torah but did not get it a chance to convert later in life. One way or another they would find their way to the truth and seek him out.

Anonymous said...

All I am going to say is all non Jews who are inquisitive about Judaism should go here.

the site speaks for its self

Sue said...

There are so many twisty lies that through the years xtians have argued that J(yashka) is the Mosiah. It isn't anyone's fault, but part of xtian religion is to argue and try to change and convert Jews even through torture (Spanish Inquisition) such a frightening history of persecution . There are many books written about this and Rabbi Mizrahi has a wonderful debate on this subject on the net arguing with a Xtian Minister about Yashka, if he was Moshiah.
So, please just learn and comment with eyes open in a logical manner and take a deep breath.